Inclusion That Actually Sticks

In this episode, Joanne Lockwood speaks with leadership advisor Susan Drumm about what it takes to make inclusion truly stick inside organisations. The conversation focuses on blind spots, patterns of thinking, and the way leaders can widen perspective through curiosity rather than resistance.

Susan explains how tools such as the Enneagram can help teams understand differing motivations, balance cognitive diversity, and make better decisions. She also explores the role of language, psychological safety, and voice equity in helping people speak up and engage more openly across differences.

The discussion moves into the impact of music, neuroscience, and self-awareness on shifting beliefs and rewiring unhelpful patterns. Susan shares examples of how people can recognise limiting narratives, reframe them, and create more empowering habits at work and in life.

The episode closes with reflections on leadership, authenticity, AI bias, and the importance of staying grounded in one’s own judgement while remaining open to others. Overall, it is a practical and reflective conversation about inclusive leadership, team dynamics, and long-lasting culture change.

One-sentence summary

Susan Drumm’s message is that people change when they feel seen without judgement, and that real inclusion starts with the courage to notice our blind spots, soften our certainty, and choose curiosity over self-protection.

Synopsis

Susan Drumm comes across as someone who has spent her life noticing what others miss. She speaks with the calm of a person who has learned that most conflict is not really about the surface argument, but about what sits underneath it: fear, habit, old wounds, and the stories people carry about themselves. She lives in Scottsdale, enjoys the sun, and talks about her own rhythms with the kind of self-knowledge she encourages in others. That sense of groundedness runs through everything she says. She is not trying to impress; she is trying to help people become more honest with themselves. Her work is shaped by years of helping leaders understand why they react the way they do, and by a deep belief that people are far more complex than the behaviour we can see on the surface.

What Susan is trying to change is the habit of living and leading from a fixed, defended place. She wants people to stop mistaking certainty for strength. Again and again, she returns to the idea that the person who frustrates you may be the one who can help you grow, and that the parts of ourselves we avoid often hold the key to better judgement, deeper trust, and more humane relationships. She is trying to build a world where people do not have to harden themselves to be effective, where teams can hold difference without turning it into division, and where inclusion is not a slogan but a felt experience of being able to bring your whole mind, voice, and care into the room. Her work carries a quiet urgency: if we do not learn how to see one another more honestly, we risk staying trapped in the same patterns, just with better language over the top.

10 Small, digestible concepts for easy learning

1. What you focus on becomes your world.

We do not notice everything; we notice what we’ve trained ourselves to look for.

2. Everyone has a blind spot.

The thing you cannot see is often the thing quietly shaping your judgement.

3. The person who annoys you may be your teacher.

Friction is often a sign that someone is showing you what you avoid.

4. Curiosity softens conflict.

Questions open doors that certainty slams shut.

5. Resistance gives problems more power.

What we fight without understanding tends to grow stronger.

6. Behaviour is not the whole story.

What people do is only the surface; what drives it matters more.

7. Being right is not the same as being wise.

Sometimes the need to win blocks the chance to learn.

8. A team needs difference to think well.

If everyone sees the world the same way, important risks get missed.

9. Old songs keep old feelings alive.

What we repeatedly absorb can keep us tied to an identity we want to outgrow.

10. Authenticity matters more when the world gets noisier.

The more artificial the outside world becomes, the more people need to trust their own inner knowing.

The “why” in the story

What they believe is true about people

Susan seems to believe people are not difficult by nature; they are patterned. They protect themselves, repeat what once helped them survive, and often confuse those patterns with who they are. She treats people as capable of growth, but only if they are met with honesty and care.

What they cannot unsee

She cannot unsee the way blind spots shape relationships, leadership decisions, and belonging. She sees how often people interpret others through their own fears and motives, and how easily that becomes division, exclusion, or misunderstanding.

What they are no longer willing to tolerate

She is no longer willing to accept rigid thinking, performative listening, or the idea that one version of success should fit everyone. She clearly resists the habit of saying, “that’s just how it is”, because she knows that phrase often protects comfort rather than truth.

What they are trying to build instead

She is trying to build containers for honest self-reflection, mutual curiosity, and practical kindness. In human terms, she wants people to feel less trapped in old stories and more free to show up with confidence, care, and perspective.

1. The trigger

Susan’s commitment is shaped by seeing how often people get stuck in patterns they do not recognise. The repeated experience of watching teams miss one another, leaders hit the same emotional wall, and people mistake their own lens for reality seems to have sharpened her purpose.

2. The tension

She keeps meeting the tension between comfort and growth. People want reassurance, not challenge; certainty, not reflection; agreement, not truth. She also meets fatigue — the weariness that comes from trying to see differently in systems that reward defensiveness.

3. The insight

Her insight is that people do not change by force; they change when they understand themselves more clearly. She believes the real work is not attacking the blind spot, but learning to see it, name it, and use it with humility.

4. The pivot

She moved from simply interpreting people’s behaviour to helping them notice the deeper pattern beneath it. She uses tools, language, metaphor, and reflection to help people stop rehearsing the same story and start choosing a better one.

5. The destination

The destination is a life and workplace where people are less trapped by fear and more able to contribute freely. It feels like being heard without having to fight for your humanity, and working with others without shrinking, hardening, or performing.

Five key takeaways and learning points

1. People often react from old pain, not present reality.

So what: if you see the pattern underneath the reaction, you can meet the person more fairly.

2. Inclusion starts with self-knowledge.

So what: people cannot make space for others if they never examine their own assumptions.

3. Teams need more than harmony; they need useful difference.

So what: a missing voice can mean a missed risk, not just a missed opinion.

4. Curiosity is a better first response than correction.

So what: when people feel approached with respect, they are more likely to stay open.

5. Old identities can keep people stuck.

So what: sometimes the first step towards change is releasing the story that once helped you cope.

Ten distinct ideas explained

1. Blind spots are human, not shameful.

Everyone has areas they cannot see clearly. The point is not perfection, but willingness to notice where your view is limited.

2. Difference is not a threat to cohesion.

When valued well, difference strengthens judgement, because other people see what you miss.

3. Exclusion can become internal as well as external.

Susan’s story about the woman who felt “excluded” shows how old experiences can make present situations feel heavier than they are.

4. Language shapes the temperature of a conversation.

The way we speak can either invite reflection or trigger defence. Small changes in tone can change what becomes possible.

5. The need to be right can block connection.

When people enter a conversation already trying to win, they stop listening for what is true.

6. Self-awareness is a leadership discipline.

Leading well is not just about decisiveness; it is about understanding what drives your reactions and choices.

7. Feeling seen changes behaviour.

When people are met without judgement, they often soften, reflect, and become more generous with others.

8. Emotions carry information.

Susan does not dismiss feelings; she treats them as signals. The issue is not feeling something, but getting trapped there.

9. We repeat what feels familiar.

Even when a pattern hurts us, it can feel safe because it is known. That is why change often takes conscious practice.

10. Human care cannot be automated.

In a world of AI and noise, empathy, discernment, and authentic presence matter more, not less.

How people should change as a result

1. Think

• Stop assuming behaviour is the whole truth about a person.
• Start asking what fear, need, or history may be driving the reaction.
• See difference as a resource, not an inconvenience.
• Recognise that “normal” is often just familiar.
• Treat inclusion as something felt in daily interactions, not declared in principle.

2. Feel

• Move from defensiveness towards curiosity.
• Move from judgement towards compassion.
• Move from certainty towards humility.
• Move from frustration towards patience with complexity.
• Move from performative openness towards genuine willingness to learn.

3. Act

• Ask one more question before disagreeing.
• Invite the quieter or more hesitant voice into the conversation.
• Notice who gets interrupted, overlooked, or left out of key information.
• Replace one reactive phrase with a more open one, such as asking for another perspective.
• Reflect on your own repeated triggers and what they might be telling you.
• Build in a pause before major decisions to test for missing viewpoints.
• Create a daily ritual that helps you reset into the person you want to be, not the pattern you fall into.

One thing to remember

Inclusion sticks when people feel safe enough to see themselves clearly and brave enough to see each other fully.